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Talk:Departures (story)
Interesting. HT wrote the POD story only after he wrote most of the "Agent" stories. ML4E 23:36, January 12, 2010 (UTC) :Hmm. He may have written it first, but wasn't able to get it published until all the others were done. TR 23:43, January 12, 2010 (UTC) ::More likely the latter. As I recall Super Basil makes many a reference to Mouamet the saint, even to that hymn he wrote when he had to evacuate. Turtle Fan 01:27, January 13, 2010 (UTC) I think TF has it. The "Agent" stories repeatedly mentioned "St. Mouamet" and the hymns he had created. Not surprising given they were originally individually published so HT needed to establish the POD. I think he had worked out the POD but hadn't written Departures. This story was published two years after the "Agent" collection had come out so I think HT was inspired to write the POD story and then another Basil story namely "Pillar". ML4E 19:55, January 13, 2010 (UTC) :That makes sense, too. TR 21:07, January 13, 2010 (UTC) ::It reminds me a bit of the theory that The War That Prematurely Ejaculated would hook up with ItPoME. Though I'd say that's unlikely to happen now. Turtle Fan 23:56, January 13, 2010 (UTC) Year of setting I'm a little confused as to what year Departures is set in.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 09:19, September 9, 2016 (UTC) :That's a fair question. When I went digging for an answer, I realized that, since Phokas is still on the throne (he was deposed in 610) and is generally referred to as "new", and Narses and Germanos are already dead (both appear to have died in 604), and Khosrau II of Persia's armies are still running around, and no one's heard of Herakleios yet (he began his revolt in 608), it has to be about 605, and cannot be any later than 607. Which means Uchronia is wrong, 610 is not the POD, and we need to change that in our templates. TR (talk) 16:38, September 9, 2016 (UTC) ::Now I see that in OTL Muhammad's visitation from Gabriel happened in 610 (hence the mistaken assumption re the POD), but HT seems to have bumped it to an earlier date. I wonder why. ::Is it clear in-story when the visitation happened?JonathanMarkoff (talk) 20:01, September 24, 2016 (UTC) :::In story, Mouamet said that during his first trading run, he saw a Christan monk preaching and heard the Archangel Gabriel tell him to follow the monk. Mouamet did, ending his secular life and becoming a monk himself. It just occurs to me that it being his first trip might be another clue. Was Mohammed a well established trader when he heard Gabriel rather than a young man starting the occupation as in the story? ML4E (talk) 20:09, September 24, 2016 (UTC) ::::Given that much of Muhammad's early life is obscure, it's unclear when exactly he joined his uncle as a trader. A rough historical consensus makes it at about 583 CE, so I made that the approximate POD. He was married in the 590s in OTL; there are no references to him leaving his wife that I can find in the story, which further suggests that it was in his first trading expeditions that he converted. In OTL, he did meet a Christian monk, but it wasn't in a square, it was at his residence. The caravan bunked down with the monk, and the story goes that this monk realized Mohammed was destined for great things. TR (talk) 20:16, September 24, 2016 (UTC) :::::From the story: "He rarely thought these days of the wife he had left with all else when he had given over the world for the monastery. He wondered if she still lived; she was a good deal older than he. With very human vanity, he wondered if she ever thought of him. With his own characteristic honesty, he doubted it. The marriage had been arranged. It was not her first. Probably it would not have been her last, either." ::::::Well, evidence that Amazon look inside is not fool-proof. TR (talk) 01:32, September 25, 2016 (UTC) :::::The wife isn't named, but the details are consistent with Khadija the Great. This would suggest the POD came between 595 and 600. To be fair, if the precise chronology of M's life isn't known for certain, I guess HT had plenty of leeway to mix and match. :::::It seemed odd to me that he became eligible for monkhood by essentially divorcing his wife. That doesn't seem like the usual way the Church did things, but I've heard that those out-of-the-way Christian colonies kind of made their own rules.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 20:27, September 24, 2016 (UTC) ::::::I don't know much about the legalistic specifics, but a common general theme in first millennium canon law was, if two people had been married in a pagan ceremony, and only one wanted to become Christian, the Church attached very little weight to the marriage. If both wanted to convert, the marriage's sanctity would be upheld. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:55, September 24, 2016 (UTC) POD Reviewing the reference to Khadija the Great and the commonly accepted OTL chronology, it now seems that the POD should be changed to c. 597. JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:54, October 3, 2016 (UTC) :Why 597? TR (talk) 01:53, October 4, 2016 (UTC) ::Some breathing space seems to have gone by between M&K's marriage in 595, but M seems already well established in Ir-Ruhaiyeh by 605.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:09, October 4, 2016 (UTC) :::Hm. Their first daughter appears to have been born in 598. Since there don't seem to be any references to the children Moumet left behind with his wife, I agree that c. 597 is appropriate. TR (talk) 18:02, October 4, 2016 (UTC)